Good Growing

Chris Enroth: 00:06

Welcome to the Good Growing podcast. I am Chris Enroth, horticulture educator with University of Illinois Extension, going at you from Macomb, Illinois, and we have got a quasi gardenbite for you today. It's kind of a rewind, when we talked turkey with now retired extension educator James Theory. And, well, I I say kind of a garden bite because as I was listening back to the audio, I was like, well, where do I make a cut? This is all great information about, you know, comparing commercial turkey production versus how can you raise turkeys in your own backyard.

Chris Enroth: 00:44

And so I put a lot of that in there, so it's a little bit longer than your normal garden bite. But, we're looking or actually, in this case, we're listening back, to when we chatted with James all about turkeys. This is a time early on in the podcast when we did not have video, associated with it. So, you can't see our smiling faces here. So enjoy, this audio clip where we chat with James Theuri about commercial turkey production, how that turkey kinda goes from, you know, the the turkey house all the way to our table.

Chris Enroth: 01:22

And then we talk about how can you raise your own heritage breed turkeys in the backyard. Enjoy.

James Theuri: 01:31

Now I'm into programs that have to deal with rabbits of all things. I don't know. I made a mistake of offering a rabbit program near Easter time, and I was like, no wonder people didn't sign. You can't you can't do that around Easter time. So but I do rabbits.

James Theuri: 01:49

I do sheep and goats. I do poultry, but mainly chickens. And then I do deal with grazers, people that raise dairy cattle or beef cattle. But they are not I don't have an animal science background. But when it comes to growing the pasture, you know the choice of grasses, when to seed them, and how to take care of the grass, the weeds that go in there.

James Theuri: 02:20

And I've gotten a few things now about pasture management that I didn't know before, and they also apply to poultry, chickens. And I like to say poultry and chickens because when I say poultry, some people think I'm saying poetry. You know. You gotta hang around me for a while before you get to know this Missourian accent probably.

Chris Enroth: 02:40

Yes. Such a thick Southern Missouri accent. So

James Theuri: 02:47

but thank you for inviting me. I know you called me a guru. If I cannot answer all the questions, you bear with me, and I'll do my best.

Chris Enroth: 02:56

Certainly. Thank you. We're so happy that you're here on the show with us today. James, I'm curious. When I think about turkeys and Thanksgiving, I of feel like it's similar to how the green industry grows poinsettias because that's kind of my background in how greenhouses, they grow these poinsettias, which is the plant.

Chris Enroth: 03:20

I think it's like their number one selling plant. They make a lot of their most of their money off of selling poinsettias, but it happens one month a year, maybe just like a few weeks out the year. Is that the same thing with growing turkeys? Are most of these growers just selling the majority of turkeys, like, right before Thanksgiving?

James Theuri: 03:39

To a large extent, yes. Maybe 80%, yes. And the other 20% or 10%, because there are people who really, really value the meat from these turkeys. I mean, there are people you can't just give them any other type of meat. They want just that one.

James Theuri: 04:01

But yes, to a large extent, we grow them all. Those who grow them hoping to make some little money, do it for the Thanksgiving element. And that also cuts across the board because if you target the Muslim Ramadan holiday, you then you've got to raise your shipping goods at the right time just for that occasion. But back to the Turkeys, they are very they have they are of seasonal benefit. And I would answer your question saying, yes, to a large extent, They are really, very seasonal.

James Theuri: 04:40

You gave that nice example of poinsettias there. They are just like that.

Chris Enroth: 04:45

So how long does it take to grow a turkey? When were these are they called chicks? The baby

James Theuri: 04:52

Ports. Ports. P o u l t s. Ports.

Chris Enroth: 04:56

Okay. When did they start?

James Theuri: 04:57

And then the thing is, you know, the best extension in our the best answer in extension is two words. It depends.

Chris Enroth: 05:07

That's right.

James Theuri: 05:08

All right. So how long do you grow them? It really depends. One, on the heritage. Is it I'm sorry.

James Theuri: 05:17

Yeah. So if it is land race or what we call breeds that have been in The U. S. Forever, and by now I think everybody should know that this is an American bird. So if you're getting some of those heritage birds, they grow slower, but their meat is so flavorful.

James Theuri: 05:40

Some people just don't mind the slowness. On the other hand, if you are commercial or if you are growing it for yourself and you want one great big huge bird, then it will take longer. So it can take anywhere from sixteen weeks to twenty two weeks. So we're talking five, let's say five and a half months plus or minus, depending on even your management matters, of course. We are already assuming that you're doing a great job feeding them when they should be fed, cleaning the coop, and making sure there are no diseases, all those good things.

James Theuri: 06:16

If you're doing all that, all things considered good, then five and a half months so it could be six, could be four even. So it all depends on the management and the breed. And if we have time we can go into some of the breeds.

Chris Enroth: 06:36

Yeah. I'm curious James. So how far apart are the majority of heritage that we consume related to our wild turkey that you can find out in, you know, in the farm fields right now and backyards?

James Theuri: 06:52

When I came to The United States thirty years ago, we used to buy a 10 pounder for a dollar a pound. Right now, it's $4.03, $4. So the same bird goes for 30 to $40. That's kind of so much. But the point I want to make is this.

James Theuri: 07:11

If somebody were to grow the heritage ones only, first of all, they are slow growing and they don't gain as much weight, then they would have to sell them way much more because they want to recover their money and they have that extra value. They don't have they still have their original genotype in them. And people value it when they get heritage. And you are familiar with the heirloom tomatoes. People people value those for their flavor and all those things.

James Theuri: 07:45

And the heritage breeds have those beautiful flavors. So they have extra value. That's the point I want to make. And they would have to cost way much more. So when it comes to the commercial aspect, if I was commercial, I want the faster growing turkeys, the breeds that will grow faster and gain more weight because then it will be per pound and I want them to mature quicker.

James Theuri: 08:12

So it's all over the place. I mean, there is more of the commercial breeds than the heritage breeds for for sure. Except for backyard, those who want to keep in the backyard. If I was to keep them, let me talk about myself, I would go for the heritage breed just because of the one, it's not such a huge thing. And secondly, it's more flavorful.

James Theuri: 08:41

And third, they have better instincts at life. They know how to run away from a predator. They know how to forage. Those are great qualities in some of these meat buds that we raise.

Chris Enroth: 08:57

So I'm also not very, but a little bit more familiar with chickens. And I'm trying to compare chickens with turkeys here. With chickens, you have the Cornish cross. And that's kind of a mutant looking bird. It's got, like, these big breasts.

Chris Enroth: 09:10

And it's it's a little bit of an ugly bird. Is that the the the turkey growers have their own, like, big meat producing breeds?

James Theuri: 09:20

Actually, they do. And you know what its name is? Broad breasted white. Just I mean, and so it's so commercial. When I'm growing commercially, I want a huge thing because I'm going to sell it to you per pound.

James Theuri: 09:40

I want to make more money. I don't care about the quality. I'm caring about the quantity at this point in time. The broad breasted white is the largest and the fastest growing of the turkey breeds and it is great for confinement. So if you're going to grow them indoors, they're just happy with that.

James Theuri: 10:04

They're okay with that. And with the Tom, which is the male, you can get it up to 36 pounds. If you are going to get it to 36 pounds and then you sell it at even $3 per pound, you're asking for a $100 for that bird. The hens, the females, get to 20 pounds. Again, that's the other thing.

James Theuri: 10:31

If you want to be do not have those huge big birds in your backyard, go for the hens. They have smaller bodies compared to the toms, the males. So, yeah, there's a huge big one in the in the tacky world which rivals the Cornish crop, which which, and I agree with you, I don't like. I do not like. Yeah.

James Theuri: 10:58

Because

Ken Johnson: 10:59

And isn't it?

James Theuri: 11:00

It's got quantity and not quality. Mhmm. In my opinion. Now that's my opinion.

Ken Johnson: 11:06

And isn't it some of these larger ones you have to artificially inseminate them? They're too big to breed on their own.

James Theuri: 11:11

I should have gotten to the third advantage of the heritage breeds. They breed themselves. With the commercial ones, you gotta you're going to keep your breeding stock, you got to artificially inseminate them. And the heritage breeds turn out to be excellent mothers. So they can raise themselves completely without you having to get involved.

James Theuri: 11:36

Good point, Ken.

Chris Enroth: 11:38

Speaking of heritage breeds being able to like run away from a predator, with chickens, everything wants to eat a chicken. Can turkeys defend themselves or are they a little bit more resilient to a lot of the things that want to eat ground birds or in this case turkeys?

James Theuri: 11:53

You know, one of the questions that you submitted was about predation. Somebody somebody talked about losing their birds to predators. And I could see why that happened because they were in the open, they were tiny, they were easy pick for any predator. And like I said, they do not have the instinct, especially the the ones that have been bred or commercial breeds. They do not have the instinct to run away from predators as opposed to the heritage breeds or the ones that are wild, but, you know, the wild related ones.

James Theuri: 12:32

So you got to come up with housing that actually completely is predator proof. And I know there was an extra question there. They made it predator proof against the birds that of prey, but they still lost their their turkeys to something else. I would comb that structure, the housing structure with a tooth comb because even a small opening as tiny as that, a few inches wide, will let in a weasel, and that will go and mess those birds pretty bad. So before they are really huge and big, I would want to make sure that I protect them a 100% from anything that could get in there.

James Theuri: 13:22

And so my suspicion, in fact, now I'm answering that question, so to speak, my suspicion is that there's a hole somewhere, some entry somewhere, which you can't see that some weasel or some other small critter there has first of all, know, raccoons are so clever. They are the cleverest of those small critters. They'll find a little hole somewhere, and it could be up there, it could be down on the ground, it could be anywhere. So comb that structure with a tooth comb and find whether there is any entry hole somewhere. That would be my answer to your question there.

James Theuri: 14:00

There have been some people have said that turkeys are very stupid animals, and they are really not that stupid. They they have nice personalities. They they they cannot they can bond with people very nicely. The one thing you can do though, you can bring in the feed, it's in a bucket, and say, you know, you got to do something else while you come and pour it in their feeding troughs or whatever. The moment one jumps in into the bucket, the others will all jump in.

James Theuri: 14:33

What will happen to the ones that jumped in the beginning? They'll be, you know, they'll be trampled on. So don't do things like those. You are the one who induced them to do that. Just don't let them do something like that.

Chris Enroth: 14:45

So let's say maybe next year we have the goal of growing our own Thanksgiving turkey. And you had mentioned if you were doing this, you would go with heritage breeds. Is this something someone with maybe a little bit of poultry raising knowledge could do on their own?

James Theuri: 15:04

Absolutely. Like I said, you give them the tender loving care. As long as you make sure you calculate that each bird will have like three to four square feet of space, you'll be you should be fine because then there should be not there should not be much stress. When you have too many of them in very small space, they start pecking on each other. And the moment one produces blood, everybody wants that blood.

James Theuri: 15:35

There's iron in there. It's tasty and good. So that pecking can be stopped if you have enough space so that even if there's one that is the alpha or the omega male or female and wants to peck others, they have somewhere else to run to as opposed to when they are really crowded. If you have some yardage, some room behind there, just make sure you don't have too many in there. Make sure you have nice cage, nice confinement.

James Theuri: 16:04

And if it is the heritage ones, can release them out in the, you know, in the lawn or in the grass or in the garden when it is not in production. And look after them and take care of them. Hide them. Just make sure that you don't have any of the predators coming, whether it's a dog or a cat or a wild critter, any of those animals. So it's it's pretty easy to take care of them.

James Theuri: 16:33

And as long as you the biggest care, first of all, has to be when you receive the one day old or two day old pulse. A lot of people, even with chickens, I have had somebody call me, oh, my 56 chicks came, and within within five hours of receiving them, half of them died. I told her she was the one that was the problem. These chicks have been traveling for the last two days. They are thirsty.

James Theuri: 17:10

They have been rocked all over the place. It's been a stressful experience. As soon as you receive them, give them water. That has to happen without any question. Secondly, have yourself be prepared two or three days before a nice little section that we call a brooder, which you are all familiar with, where there is wood shavings or something else on the floor.

James Theuri: 17:38

It's not cold. It's not concrete. Have water ready. Have food ready. Have heating ready.

James Theuri: 17:48

You've got to give them tender loving care. That has to be you have to have 95 degrees Fahrenheit of heat going through. And you probably will not lose that many. We say we can tolerate up to 10% loss. When you call me and say 56 chicks, half of them are dead, that is not acceptable and it is really your mistake.

James Theuri: 18:16

Tender loving care in the beginning and proper feeding and making sure they have been vaccinated against coccidiosis and other. If, for instance foul pox is prevalent in your area, prevent, you protect them against that, then you have a good beginning and you shouldn't lose that many chicks and they should go on to maturity as you want them to. If they are for breeding, then they'll be ready in six months to start breeding. If they are for for meat, anything between four and six six months. I'm sorry.

James Theuri: 18:57

I hope I didn't say six weeks. Four to six months.

Ken Johnson: 19:01

So there's some more breeds that are if a homeowner was going to do this, what kind of breeds would they want to look at? Kind of the heritage, are there any that kind of work better than others?

James Theuri: 19:11

Yes. Absolutely. So we've kind of said unless you are commercial grower, don't go with a broad breasted white. You may want to go with a red. It's probably got feathers that look like your beard, Ken.

James Theuri: 19:31

And they are liked for that color. And the good news with those is you can raise them in confinement. You can do partial confinement and partial outside. All you can do it on pasture entirely. And when I say on pasture, that doesn't mean you're not going to buy feed.

James Theuri: 19:51

You still give them feed, but then let them graze. Let them find grass. They actually eat grass. Poultry eats grass, but it cannot digest grass. But the juice is coming out of grass, the chlorophyll, I know that, offer a few more vitamins and goodies.

James Theuri: 20:10

It also is roughage for the digestive system. So you still have to give them feed out there or give them feed in the housing, so they eat and then go out and pick up the occasional cricket and grasshopper and worm. That's why the meat, by the way, for pasture, poultry, whether it's chickens or turkey or whatever or ducks, tastes better because they have all these extra ingredients coming into their flesh, their meat. So that would be one, the bourbon red. And then although it's still called medium size, it still goes to 33 pounds for the tongue and 18 the hen, the female.

James Theuri: 21:00

Then there is the bronze one, which is supposed to be strong and hardy, great for backyards, particularly this one, But it's a big one again, 36 pounds for the male and 20 for the hen. And there are two types of species underneath this one, the heritage one and that's where the broad breasted white came from. So if you're not going with the broad breasted white, go with one of its parents, which is the bronze parent, and it will give you the raising of this will also be good. And it is okay in confinement or both confinement and partial partial outdoors. Okay.

James Theuri: 21:50

The royal palm, p a l m, royal palm, is great for the backyard. Now this one, the male goes to sixteen pounds and the female to ten pounds. So again, if it's your desire to have the smaller bird, this is a good one. It is smaller for a start, and it is slower maturing because it's a heritage bird. It's an excellent forager.

James Theuri: 22:19

It can feed for itself out there if it goes out there to look for its own food. It can fly and roost. Now flying is of advantage because if a hawk is swooping down on it, it can jump in the air and kind of fly a little bit, and the hawk misses it. So it's much better for protection of itself against predators. And then, yeah, you can do it outside a pasture, outdoors, or on pasture.

James Theuri: 22:53

So again, that's really a good one. The royal palm, when you're a backyard grower, that's probably a really good one. And myself, I would like it because I don't want a huge big bird. I want something. I mean, 16 pounds isn't too small.

James Theuri: 23:10

It's still a big thing. And then there's the slate, S L A T E. The SLATE is like the bobble, red, goes to 33 pounds and 18 pounds. 33, of course, the male, 18 for the female. It has robust immunity.

James Theuri: 23:32

So there are two diseases we probably will get into in a little while. But it has immunity to those two diseases. It has hardiness. It can survive in changing conditions. I should also have said that the poles react very badly sometimes to changing temperature, changing wind speeds, changing dampness.

James Theuri: 24:03

They don't react very well to that. So but this one, the slate is great at adapting quickly to any changes like those in weather and environmental conditions. And they are very flavorful as well, the slates. And the goodness with them, you can raise them on pasture, you can raise them outdoors or in pasture confinement. That's another good thing about them.

James Theuri: 24:32

So that's that's the breeds that I have in mind. I'm sure there might be others, but those are some of the breeds that they are for choice from homeowners.

Katie Parker: 24:47

Would you say is it easier to hatch your own, poults or to buy poults and raise them from there?

James Theuri: 24:56

Both are easy. Let me put it that way. By getting because I've I've I've gotten involved with one homeowner who actually bought what do you call it, incubator. The incubator. Yes.

James Theuri: 25:12

If you can get those eggs, if you have your male and female turkeys and you just collect your eggs and keep them, you can always brood those, or you can always incubate those. And my friend did get a very good count out of, like, 20 eggs. I think he had 15 or 16. That was a good return rate. So they are the four that didn't hatch were probably never fertilized.

James Theuri: 25:47

So you can brood your own. So hoping that you get a good return rate, that should be okay. The bad thing is you put in 20 eggs there and you're aiming at the very least to have 10, and then you get four. Now you wasted your time. So by buying, of course, you let somebody else do the job.

James Theuri: 26:12

That's what that's the advantage of buying from somebody else. You just get prepared and then let the other person sell you after they have done the brooding and the incubation and send them to you. Obviously then, the choice of breed that you may want may not be the one available or the one you're getting. So again, if you want to have your own particular breed and you have the male and female, you're more assured of keeping the genotype that you want. So the advantages and disadvantages of either option, that's that's would be my answer.

James Theuri: 26:53

Or should I have said that it depends?

Chris Enroth: 26:57

The good old extension answer. Yes.

James Theuri: 26:58

Yes. The best extension answer.

Chris Enroth: 27:02

Well, was a lot of great information all about turkeys. Well, the GoodWine podcast is a production of University of Illinois Extension edited this week by me, Chris Enroth. A special thank you to our listeners and a happy, happy, happy Thanksgiving to everyone. Whether you're listening or watching, we wish you the the happiest of turkey days. And as always, keep on growing.