Ep. 221 Compost your way: Passive and active composting styles | #GoodGrowing
Welcome to the Good Growing podcast. I am Chris Enroth, horticulture educator with the University of Illinois Extension coming at you from Matcombe, Illinois, and we have got a great show for you today, composting, letting things sit around and rot. Yes. It's gonna be a fun topic today, and this is a thing that might might people might not wanna do. Maybe they get a lot of work, but we're gonna show you.
Chris:It can be super simple and easy if you want it to be or as complicated as you would prefer it to be. So you know I'm not doing this by myself. I am joined as always every single week by horticulture educator Ken Johnson in Jacksonville. Hey, Ken.
Ken:Hello, Chris. I think that that perfectly describes just about anything in gardening. You can make it as simple or as complicated as you want.
Chris:That's true. Yeah. That that's pretty true. And and folks, if you wanna keep it simple, maybe just stop listening to podcasts about gardening, stop reading books about gardening. Just don't learn anything because the more you learn, the more complicated it seems to get.
Chris:I don't know what to do anymore. The more ideas you have. I know. I know. I'm I'm running out of I I'm running out of budget.
Chris:I'm running out of space. I'm running out of so much stuff. So stop learning right here, right now. We're not a very good educational podcast. But, Ken, I guess, I'm curious, do you compost at home?
Ken:Yeah. I guess you could call it that. We take the very simplistic approach to it, and we just have a pile Mhmm. In the backyard. And I'm sure hardcore composters would cringe, at what I've had going on in the backyard, but we, we'll call that comp.
Ken:And we've done a vermicompost. I probably won't talk about that much today, but we've we've done that in the past, usually just in the winter. Mhmm. Keep saying you need get more worms, but I never actually get to the point of getting more worms. So we haven't done it for a few years.
Ken:Yeah. How about you?
Chris:About the same. So I I would assume, yes, the hardcore composters, they're definitely gonna have some issues here with today. I my compost pile is is just that. It's an open pile. I do vermicompost.
Chris:I've been doing that since 2012. I have taken a year off of that though, and so oh my gosh. '20 so 2024. Yeah. It's it's been a long time.
Chris:I've been a long time vermicomposter. So, yeah, I just it's do a little bit of everything. Ken, I suppose our first thing we need to define is compost. What is it? What is this black gold as we call it?
Chris:Yes.
Ken:I'll read the USDA definition here. So composting, is the controlled aerobic decomposition of organic matter by microorganisms into a stable humus like soil amendment. The final material should have the following characteristics, unorganizable original materials, dark brown, no foreign matter, so on and so forth. So taking organic material, breaking it down into humus like. So, like, the soil stuff, not hummus that you eat.
Ken:That's what I don't know what is hummus. Sesame. Chickpeas? Chickpeas, sesame, olive oil. Mhmm.
Ken:Some other stuff. Yeah.
Chris:Garlic.
Ken:Yeah. You don't wanna eat this stuff.
Chris:No. Just hummus like and not hummus like. Yeah. I think and did they also say into, like, a soil component? Is that what it had described it as?
Chris:I thought I heard the s word in there, the soil word. Ah, yes. Soil amendment. Ah, soil amendment. So this is, I think, an important distinction.
Chris:It is something that my souls professor drove into our head is that compost or organic matter, in this case, is not soil. A lot of folks will say this compost is soil. And the professor would say, no. It is not. It is a component or it is a part of it, where as it is really just a small teeny tiny little fraction of it.
Chris:So in this soil that that that we imagine in our head like that ideal soil, half of it is pore space and the other half is like physical material. Most of that physical material are minerals, sand, silt, and clay. And an ideal soil, we would only be looking at about a 5% organic matter. And that organic matter, that would be the compost. Like, that's that thing that we could be adding into that soil.
Chris:And so that I think that's an important distinction that that I had, you know, been tested over many times about this particular, you know, what is compost, what is organic matter. And and especially, you know, when you would be going out to fill a hole in the yard and someone would throw compost in the hole and said, I filled it. Well, only temporarily because compost is not permanent. It goes away. So when we're filling holes in the yard or we're leveling things, we wanna use mineral components of the soil.
Chris:But but the organic matter is very important and critical for what makes soil soil. What because soil is alive. The other thing that has driven into my head multiple times, the the living, breathing soil and that fed with organic matter.
Ken:Yeah. So it's it's it's going to be an important component because a lot of our soils, what, knowing we're, like, 5%. Mhmm. You know, some of your you get down further south in The US, that that soil start that organic matter starts dropping, quite a bit and stuff. So it's one of the reasons why we have good soils here is that Yes.
Ken:That higher organic matter, to it. And and the other the sand silt clay ratios and stuff helps too.
Chris:Mhmm. Yeah. And the previous land uses and and all that. Yeah. The the history, we could get into soils.
Chris:That would be another good podcast topic. Coming up next week, the history of soils in Illinois. No. I'm kidding. We don't know.
Chris:Don't know. Can't talk about that yet. I need to read a book or something first.
Ken:Maybe a few.
Chris:Yeah. Mhmm.
Ken:So I guess we should probably go into so now that we've kinda defined, I guess, the process of what compost is, how do we go about making said black and gold?
Chris:Yes. I I think at the very beginning, had referenced this. It it can be a little intimidating. The especially if you sat through, like, a composting class, and we'll get into this stuff, but you've heard the terms like, oh, your carbon to nitrogen ratio, making sure that you're layering things together and you're adding enough water and air and and all that. Maybe you're like, well, that's not for me, and that's fine.
Chris:Composting can be a lot of work. It it can be really simple. So on that simple side of of the equation is passive composting where you're literally just piling things up in a part of your yard and you just let it sit there. And it will compost just like if you are doing the other end of the spectrum where you're doing active composting, where you are maybe measuring out the the different ingredients you're adding to the pile, you're turning it, you're making sure that it is well watered, that it is aerated, you're using a a thermometer probe to measure the temperature. You know, once you're you know, that that's that's a lot of work.
Chris:It can be a lot of fun. I'd say that it could both be a lot of fun because at the end, you get compost. But the active composting, you know, you could go from raw material to a finished compost within, you know, maybe three, four weeks a month when during the warms part of the year. Whereas with the passive composting, it might take you a year or longer for that pile to really break down. And it really breaks down in the center, and then, you know, the you might dig out the center to use that compost and just sort of keep piling things on like I do.
Chris:No turning here. Just harvest where I can get the pitchfork in into the middle. So that that that's really a range of effort for you, passive versus active composting.
Ken:Yeah. I think, you know, the the passive I think the maybe the composting purists wouldn't consider that composting because it's just kinda setting letting it rot. Whereas I think, you know, you're you're more hardcore. I don't if that's right term, but that's think in that, in their mind, composting is that actual active whereas just sitting there isn't, you know, true composting. But for our definitions, it is.
Chris:I believe everyone can be a composter, Ken. Oh, yes. I and yeah. So and and we'll get to some of the ways that you can build these piles. But remember, like, the way I do it is I I literally, I cut things and I just drop them on the ground.
Chris:And then when I get maybe piles of things and it's too much, I'll just take it over to the the compost pile. So, you know, whether it's sitting there where I just cut it next to the plant, it will rot naturally right there or or compost naturally right there. Sorry. Didn't mean to use the r word. I can take it over to an actual pile where I do have a lot of landscape debris over there, throw it on top there.
Chris:I mean, that that's what I do. It's and I'm not measuring anything. I'm just getting throwing stuff here and there.
Ken:Yep. That's pretty much what we do. We just dump them. Half time, we don't even cut. It just gets dumped.
Ken:And I think we've had that pile for how long has it been there now? Six, seven years? I don't think I've ever taken anything out of it. I probably should open it up and see what's, like, on the inside, but
Chris:They get smaller, though. Right? Like, it it shrinks and then you add more to it, then it could,
Ken:you know, so Yep. Over time, it'll yeah. You can tell if if we haven't had anything in a while, it'll slowly shrink down.
Chris:I guess, Ken, then like, my pile is sort of tucked away in in a shaded part of the yard. Where is yours located? Do do does that matter what type of sunlight it's getting?
Ken:Yeah. Ours is in the shade too. As far as sun versus shade, it probably doesn't really matter a whole lot. It's gonna compost whether it's in the sun or the shade. I will say that the sun and during the summer, it may dry out a little bit quicker, and and moisture is gonna be important.
Ken:If you let it dry out, the composting process is gonna start or stop. So maybe having afternoon shade would be beneficial. If you got it in full sun, it'll it'll still compost. You just kinda probably have to keep a closer eye on those moisture levels. So that's a really where if you've got a spot, it doesn't really matter, sun, shade.
Ken:Mhmm. You can still do it.
Chris:Yeah. I guess I mentioned measuring the the temperature. That doesn't really have as much to do with sun. That's more microbial activity that's creating that heat. So just clarification there.
Chris:That's what I meant by that, that heat.
Ken:Yeah. Yeah. Those microbes are breaking things down. Heat's gonna be given off, and your pile will will heat up, and that'll, you know, help break help the process of breaking things down and just kinda feeds itself.
Chris:Yeah. One of the things, like, if you are an active composter though, you you would wanna have it near a water source. And that because I think because you do need to irrigate your compost pile. Because for those microbes to activate, they need two things in kind of a balanced formula. They need water and air.
Chris:And without one of those things, usually too dry, as you mentioned, Ken, composting that that decomposition stops. Too much water and our aerobic composting stops, and we start getting anaerobic composting for rotting, which is decomposition without oxygen, which creates lots of smelly gases like sulfur and things like that. And so watering your pile is important getting down, especially in the interior. So that might mean when you're when you're building your pile or when you're turning it, you might need to water it as you, you know, begin building it up or start turning it layer by layer. That that way, you'd know that interior of the pile has gotten has gotten moisture into it.
Chris:I know I've seen folks, they will water the top of it, but if you dig down just maybe a foot down, that water does not penetrate all the way down to the center of the pile. And so it's something important to know. And and I guess I do know some people even cover their compost pile to hold some of that moisture in so they don't have to water as often.
Ken:Or to prevent excess moisture if you're a lot of you know, if we're getting not that you know, you probably put this on all the time, not just when it's getting rainy, but, yeah, if you if you're getting a lot of rain and stuff, that can help keep that water out of there so it's not getting too wet and, yeah, getting anaerobic and nice and smelly on you. Oh,
Chris:yeah. Mhmm. And the I think the ideal size, your critical mass for a compost pile is something like a cubic yard. Like, that's the smallest it needs to be or it can be. You use smaller than that.
Chris:It's gonna be really hard for it to to fire up some of that decomposition. It will still work, just not as fast. And but but, yeah, that that three by three by three ish cubic yard, that's something you would you would be shooting for when you're building your pile.
Ken:They usually have three by three by three up to, like, five by five by five. It's usually
Chris:Mhmm.
Ken:Kind of the recommendations you see somewhere somewhere in that range. Yes. Not too big, not too small. It's not that Goldilocks zone.
Chris:Yes. We'll be talking more about that Goldilocks, everything in moderation later.
Ken:So then when it comes to, I guess, actually, you know, what so we know we need moisture. We know we need air. You know, the size. Well, what are we actually putting in there? So we've got our our brown materials and our green materials.
Ken:And that's when we start getting into that that carbon to nitrogen ratio. So typically, we're looking at somewhere between 20 to 30 to one. Depending where you were twenty twenty five to one, probably an easy way to remember that. So you've got 25 parts carbon to one part nitrogen, and that's kind of the ideal ratio, for this to to be broken down, into that kind of that high quality, compost. If you get, you know, too much carbon in there, it's not gonna break down as well.
Ken:Too much nitrogen, you might start getting a little little smelly on you. Like, usually, that's high moisture stuff that your nitrogen sources. So your nitrogen sources are gonna be things like vegetable scraps, kitchen waste, and that's what usually 15 to one ratio, 12 to one ratio, something like that. So it's it's a lower carbon, so that's gonna be considered a green. Grass clippings, would be another one.
Ken:You could do weeds. Just make sure you're taking off seed heads because our, our our compost systems in backyards probably are not gonna get hot enough to kill weed seeds. And even if you are getting it that hot, it's probably not gonna kill all of them. So those are some examples of of some greens you could use if you have access to, manures, like livestock, cow, pig, chicken, what have you, you could do that. You wanna avoid cat, dog, human waste, because, you know, we're predators or and there's pathogens in there that we could pass on through that.
Ken:So we're sticking towards, I guess, your vegetarian animals, your livestock, chicken. I guess chickens eat eat, but you can put chicken in there. Or chicken compost, probably don't wanna put real chick live dead chickens in there, at least in the backyard. And yeah. So and avoiding meat, bones because you'll get critters coming in, raccoons and stuff, digging it up, a lot of fatty foods, oily foods that can clog up that pore space, and that, again, attract wildlife and stuff.
Ken:And as far as the browns, that's gonna be leaves in the fall, straw. It could be, like, wood mulch. That's gonna be pretty high carbon nitrogen ratio. Three, four, 500 to one. So you're gonna need a lot of a little bit of that's gonna go a long way.
Ken:Same thing with something like sawdust. It's a really high carbon to nitrogen ratio. More than likely in most landscapes, I would say browns are not gonna be an issue finding those. At least for us, a lot of times, you you have plenty of browns, but sometimes the greens aren't kind of at the level that you would need, you know, if you're gonna be doing this all at once. So some people will, like, freeze those greens and hold on to them until they get enough that they can start layering it when we get to talking about building the pile.
Ken:So there's there's multiple different things, we can use to to build our piles.
Chris:Well and I guess speaking of building a pile, it sounds like both you and I can don't do this. But if we were if we were going to start an an active compost pile, we would want to measure things out at least. And and and I think for the most part, we're doing this by volume. We're sort of just eyeballing all of this. If you wanted to get a big scale and and weigh everything out, definitely could do that.
Chris:But but for the most part of this, you know, we've got a couple buckets of this, a couple buckets of that, and buck you know, so we're we're sort of doing this just by bucket load, wheelbarrow full. And and so taking your greens, you know, I think a lot of composting instruction starts with layering things. And and so that's the you know, that's a great way to start because it can help you visually see, you know, again, sort of the 20 to 30 to one. So you would be taking, like, one part of your green, and then you would be put that down on a layer, and then you would add two to three parts of your brown material, carbon material. And and I guess also yeah.
Chris:I think you described several materials, Ken, that just because we call them, like, green materials and brown materials, color is not necessarily an indication of how much nitrogen they have. Like coffee grounds, they have a lower CNN ratio. I think it's, like, like, 20 to one, twenty five to one, I think, as opposed to, you know, something else like straw or wood chips, which is much higher. So yeah. And manures, as you said, those aren't usually green.
Chris:They're all usually darker color. And so yeah. Yeah. Just I think be aware too that color doesn't indicate necessarily how much nitrogen something has. But there are tables and lists online that that can list the different ingredients in your compost pile and what their carbon and nitrogen ratio would be so that you don't get one just completely out of whack where you're just, like, sitting there for years, like, why isn't anything happening?
Chris:Or it's just maybe you just added way too much nitrogen material, and it's just sorta really firing up. Sometimes they can steam. They can get pretty hot. They can smell with that that excess green material. Again, usually, it's lot too much moisture.
Chris:So Ken had had said, you know, if we're we're mounding this up, so one part green, two part two to three parts brown. What happens when we have too much carbon? Just so often the case in our neck of the woods with trees and leaves, and if you get a tree, gets gets cut down. You have wood chips. What do you do with that excess carbon?
Chris:Well, you can actually sprinkle on a little bit extra nitrogen fertilizer in your compost pile to to balance or even that out, just a just a little bit. So, yeah, if you've you've put you know you've put a lot more carbon materials, try fertilizer nitrogen fertilizer.
Ken:Yeah. And a lot of times when people are building these these piles, we're doing the layering, so you got your lasagna, browns on the bottom, then your greens. And a lot of times, we'll take a scoop of soil or something or or finish compost, put that on there, and that's gonna introduce, I guess, more but there's gonna be microbes there anyway, but that's gonna introduce more microbes. So may may not take quite as long for that stuff to really, get going. And you just a lot of times with your active at least from people I've I've listened to and talked to, a lot of times you're building that kinda all at once, and then you're actively managing that.
Ken:And then you're gonna start building another file. You're not necessarily continually adding on, to that active files because, you know, as things are breaking down, you're adding new stuff in it's it can get a little complicated. You can certainly do it. But lot of times people are doing, a three bin system where they've got one that's actively composting. They're building one and they've got one like finishing.
Ken:So it's it's done composting. It's cooled off and then let it sit for a little bit, pull that out and then build your new one there. When you're building is they can become your active. When you have been working on is is becoming your kind of sitting and aging type of thing. So in variety of different ways that you can go about doing this.
Ken:And there's all kinds of different plans online for there's how to do it. There there's bins. There's different things you can gadgets, the tumblers and stuff so you're not having to go in with a a pitchfork or some kind of fork and turn them. You can just, you know, crank a wheel there to get that done. There's rollers that you just roll around in your yard that I've seen.
Ken:Probably should've gotten one of those when the kids were younger. That would've been that would've been good. But I think there's the University of Wisconsin has a bunch of plans, like, different compost bin setups on their website. So we can throw a link to that in the show notes.
Chris:We actually did have one of those rolly compost bins that you could roll around on the ground, and looked like the Death Star. We should have painted it to look like the Death Star. The novelty of rolling it around with the kids wore off almost immediately. They do get heavy. Oh, yeah.
Chris:Yeah. That that there's lots of different methods. And I I think because there's so many different styles, if you have maybe space constraints, there are smaller compost bin tumblers, you know, smaller things you can use in in a, like, a smaller yard, maybe even on, a patio or a a a porch, something like that. And if if you're worried things like like rodents, vermin, that so like that, you know, Ken and I, we've we've talked we have open compost piles. You can do a closed pile like the tumbler, like a closed bin, like the rolly thing that my kids didn't like to roll around the yard.
Chris:So there are ways to, create a physical barrier from your compost that's occurring and and anything else that you might not want scratching around in your pile, like like rodents or your family pets.
Ken:Yeah. And speaking of rodents, it may be a good thing if to check on, any ordinances. There may be nothing in up in Chicago. I think there are some, rules about, bins and stuff, openings, how big they can be to prevent, rats and stuff. If you're a more rural area, probably not gonna be any restrictions.
Ken:If you live in a city, you may wanna check to see if there's any, kind of restrictions or any rules you have to follow when you're when you're composting.
Chris:Very good point. Yeah. And and you had mentioned, Ken, sometimes people will freeze their stuff to to hold it before adding it to the pile. That is a really good technique to kinda reduce the mass or the size of material. Shredding it also does the same.
Chris:And then what both of those techniques do is that, you know, freezing, you can you can kinda break those cell walls, makes it easier for micro bes to get in there and decompose stuff. Shredding things gives you more surface area, allows those microbes to get in there, decompose them quickly. So again, I'm kinda thinking, like, you can do this if you have, you know, 50 acres, but also if you have, like, a really small area where you're composting, you know, freeze it, shred it, reduce that particle size. And not only will it reduce the pile size, it will also potentially compost faster.
Ken:Yeah. As I say, especially if you're using leaves, something that if you've got a access to a chipper shredder or just run over them with a lawnmower first, you know, reduce that size, increase that surface area. That'll Yeah. That'll help quite a bit, which is probably why one of the reasons why ours isn't compost very fast because it's gets thrown on as is. That's not as little effort as possible.
Chris:But, you know, I I tell myself and my wife that the only thing holding me back from being an active composter is getting a gas powered chipper shredder, you know, something that could handle, like, a 10 inch wide log or something because I wanna go cut whole trees down and do this. You know, 10 inches would be excessive. Like, I think most go, what, three inches of diameter branches?
Ken:Or I think that's what they say. Yeah. Sometimes you get bigger than that. He doesn't like it, but
Chris:Read your manual. Don't listen to me. Oh, yeah. So, still in the market for that good chipper shredder, that we talked about in years past.
Ken:I'll I'll write you a note if you need.
Chris:Thank you.
Ken:That's what think. Our next, I guess, point or or questions we get sometimes is, can you compost in the winter? So, you know, there's charts out there. I don't know if there's any that we could pop in here or not, but, you you kinda look at the peak activity or the activity you're in a compost, but a lot of times you're the peaks really going up in the summer as it's getting warmer, everything's, you know, active and going. And as it starts cooling off, you know, your activity starts going down.
Ken:When we get into the winter, when it starts getting real cold, the the your your activity of your back your bacteria, your microbes, and stuff really kinda tails off. But if it's not too terribly cold, there's still there's still gonna be some composting going on outdoors. So it it can go on in the winter, but the activity and kind of the amount of composting going down is gonna be much, much lower than during kind of the active growing season. So that's why in in our house in the past, we've done, the vermicomposting. And even then, you know, your worms eat can eat up to kind of their their body weight in foods.
Ken:So if you have a pound of worms, it's a pound of of kitchen scraps. So even now, unless you've got multiple bins, you're you're still probably still probably have more, kitchen scraps than you're gonna be able to compost. So you could freeze them then if you wanted to.
Chris:Right. Yeah. We're the same boat with the vermicomposting. Maybe that that will be the future show that we can talk about. But there I I noticed with the worm bin that it as long as I even when the worm bin wasn't as active, as long as I took our kitchen scraps and I threw them in there and I covered them up with something, some of the compost or shredded paper, whatever we had in there, we never had issues with, like, odor, never had issues with with flies, anything like that.
Chris:And so if you're really serious about maybe diverting waste from the landfill with your kitchen scraps, you could potentially get, like and depending how much storage you have in your house, get, five gallon buckets or whatever and and put soil or sawdust, potting mix, something where then, you know, you have that bucket and then you put your kitchen scraps in there and then you just you cover that up to reduce the odor. I think sometimes people add things like lime to to halt or kinda reduce odors as well. If you're really serious about holding your greens in the wintertime so you can put them out in the springtime to then compost that year. So that that is an option. Depending on how much you cook at home, you might need lots of space to store five gallon buckets or whatever size tote you use.
Chris:And I guess another thing I've I've seen
Ken:oh, I don't wanna say a lot, but becoming a little more prominent, I guess, is the, I guess, countertop composters. So you put your stuff in there and then, I don't know, they heats it up and it turns it in in twenty four hours, you have compost. Supposedly, I I don't think that's really would be considered compost. You've kinda cooked it, started the the process of breaking it down. I've never tried them.
Ken:I wouldn't be surprised if, you know, you put some seeds in there, try to grow it. They probably would struggle, and that that's that's way too fast to get kinda full fully kinda stable compost. So that may be something you know, you can do something like that, store that, and then use that in your compost bin or your worm bin. But I wouldn't use that as straight up compost. Those tabletop or countertop ones, they've got, you know, different well, they run for twenty four hours or eight hours or just kinda depending on the mode and usually put a tablet in there.
Ken:I'm assuming that's got microbes or something in there to speed speed up the process and stuff. But I've never I've never looked at, you know, at the at the finished stuff, but I I can't imagine that would be what you consider compost stable. It's too quick.
Chris:That I think they call it Bokashi, or is that what it is? Like, that style of countertop composting. I've never done it myself either, but I've heard it described less decomposition, more fermentation. Like, you're and you gotta be careful with fermentation. If that's what it is, maybe I'm totally off the mark here because a lot of times we do that to preserve things and to so decomposition doesn't take place.
Chris:So, yeah, I think it's something probably I need to study about more. Well, Ken, I guess, you know, speaking of finished compost, you know, knowing when compost is done, what exactly are we looking for when we want to go in and use this compost that we have created?
Ken:So when you're when you think you're done, your your compost, whatever you're pulling out of there, it's not gonna smell or it's gonna smell like soil. It's not gonna have any kind of off smells to it. It's gonna have that kind of darker brown color to it, earthy aroma. And you're not gonna be able to tell really what it was made out of. So you can't you're not gonna be like, oh, there's that carrot I put in there.
Ken:You know, that's gonna be broken down. You know, there's that, you know, straw. You can't you're not gonna be able tell it's made from straw or carrots or apples or whatever, you put in there. So you can do that kind of visually. Another thing you can is you can kinda test it.
Ken:So you get containers. You put some with regular soil in there, a fifty fifty soil compost mix or what pulling out as compost, and then the compost by itself. Put some seeds in there. Something like germinates quickly, something like radishes, and then see how that germinates. If it's really struggling in your in your compost, your fifty fifty mix, probably an indication that, it's not quite ready, assuming it's not struggling in your regular soil too.
Ken:Your your kind of your regular soil is is your check more or less. And then that those if it's struggling and, you know, it's not germinating well, it's it's really yellow, that's probably an indication that that's not quite ready yet. You may need to turn or or do something to that to let it break down or a little more or let it rest a little bit to kind of finish up that process. Once it's done cooking or once it's not warm anymore, there's still gonna be a process breaking that down. You're gonna have different microbes moving in after it's done, with that to that that hot compost kinda period that your your tinomyces and and the fungus and stuff will move in, and kinda finish off, that compost.
Chris:And the I think the term finished compost might maybe it doesn't represent the best way to to say that because, yeah, it's not done yet. It might be done with that that hot active composting, but, yeah, there's still a whole lot, probably chemically, that needs to go on to keep breaking that material down as the the fungi then move in and and really work to break those bonds apart to make those nutrients and plant available. Yeah. I just thought about that. Yeah.
Chris:Finished compost. Now I don't know. Should I say that anymore?
Ken:And we've never really talked too much about, actually, what's it doing?
Chris:Yeah. We didn't.
Ken:So so, yeah, we've, you know, we've mentioned microbes. You've got, you know, microbes that are so usually, when when we're composting, you know, when you're where it's actively composting, actively in quotes there, you know, that 90 to 140, 150 degrees, you've got the bacteria that do really well in there. And they're doing a a lot of that composting. That that's generating the heat, helping that heat up. And then as you're turning that, that's introducing oxygen and and stuff.
Ken:So it's you're you're constantly do that. After a while, you know, they've kind of done everything they can and starts cooling off. And then you have different microbes moving in, like, tinomyces, which are kind of type of bacteria. The fungus start moving in because they can't handle those real hot temperatures. So as it cools off, they move in.
Ken:You'll have insects and stuff in there. If you get a lot of flies and stuff, that may be an indication it's going aerobic and stuff. But it's it's normal to have insects, worms, mites, and stuff kind of on the outside where it's cooler. You know, they feed down that stuff, breaking it down into smaller pieces, which is gonna help those microbes and stuff. So unless you've got any, you an excessive amount of flies, that's normal to have, you know, those other critters on there.
Ken:But, yeah, again, as it's finishing up, you've got other stuff moving in. So you've primarily bacteria doing it, fungus, and and and small invertebrates and stuff. And as Dwayne Friend, like to put it off, if you ever wanna not have to turn, just throw some bones in there and the raccoons will turn your your compost for you.
Chris:Yeah. Oh, man. That's one animal I try not to attract to my yard after having them live in my attic for years before we bought our house. It's constant fight. I so I I did visit someone who was an active composter, and they do these batch batches of compost where they gather coffee grounds from the local coffee shop, and then they have all they have, like, wood chips, shredded leaves, a a couple other kitchen scraps that they'll throw into their compost pile.
Chris:And I like, it's in these circular bins, and I did think and say to them that, man, it must not be easy to turn these. He brandished this weapon looking thing, this giant metal arrow that he, like, shoved into the pile and the arrowhead collapsed on itself, and then he could shove it in. And then when he pulled it up, it it flings or there's spring loads or that those arrow sides flare back out. And as you pull it up, it it just aerates that that entire pile. So I'm like, wow.
Chris:Well, that is a great tool for that job. And so you don't have to actually get a pitchfork in there and turn this compost pile over. That and and he was a he's active composter, looking to start a business selling it. So there's all kinds of gizmos and gadgets too out there to help you.
Ken:Yeah. And we mentioned the the temperature compost thermometers and stuff. So that's that's one tool you can use, you know, kinda monitor the heat of the pile. Usually, put that in down towards the base into the middle, and that's gonna give you so if you can kinda track to see, you know, if you've got some of that active compost going on, if it's starting to cool off, that may be an indication it's it's time to turn and stuff. And those aren't those are gonna be a little pricier than your normal kitchen thermometer that you're using.
Ken:Mhmm. Another thing I've I've heard people using it and heard people talk about is just using, like, a piece of rebar, sticking it in there, leave it in there for a day, come back later. This is gonna work better if you're in the shade than full sun, but then kinda feel that. And if it's if it's pretty warm, assuming the sun's not heating it up, that's an indication that you're you're actively composting. But if it's cool to the touch, I mean, the indication that that the pile may be slowing down, so maybe time to turn.
Ken:So and that's that's gonna that's more your active if you're just doing a passive. You know, you're not worrying about temperature necessarily. You maybe turn it every once in a while. If you're actively doing it, you may be turning, what, once a week, every other week, something like that. Whereas commercially, they I think they especially when they first start, they may be doing turning every other day.
Ken:Somebody that giant piles, windrows, and stuff. So it's a little bit different there.
Chris:Oh, yeah. The commercial composting world is is a whole different beast. So, you know, that that is when you do put the whole chicken in there, and then it's gone after a week. So well, the the other thing, Kent, I think, yeah, we said, like, you when when if you're an active composter, and and I suppose if you're the passive composter, you've just listened to us. I and you probably just tuned us out this whole time thinking, man, that's a lot of work.
Chris:Meanwhile, for the active composter, yeah, when that pile stops heating up, even when you're turning it, even when you're managing air and water, and and it's not heating up anymore, that means that bacteria that that that's really been firing up no longer has enough food for it to to go. And so that's when that fungi begin to colonize it, begin to break it down even more. But that's sort of that, dare I say, finished compost. Then when you you you would take that and you would spread that compost, and as you as you spread that compost, then the soil microbes start acting on it and break it down even more. And and so yeah.
Chris:I when is compost actually finished? I what a mystery. Now we have to actually get a real person on here who knows what they're talking about, some scientist or something. But yeah. So you you would in terms of applying compost, again, that that person I visited who was doing that batch composting, he had experimented with all these devices for sifting out material that maybe didn't make it on that first pass of composting.
Chris:So there's a lot of different types of sifting equipment that you can use. One was he, like, rolled it. He, roll it on the ground. You fill this cylindrical mesh cage with your compost and you roll it and the small stuff falls out, the big stuff stays in. You could do something simple as like a hardware cloth on like a two by four frame and just sort of pass it through whatever size mesh that that cloth is.
Chris:And then there's even these, like, vibrating tables, and this is more commercial, but you would load it on like a a conveyor belt and the table would vibrate and it would separate the particle sizes and and weights. And then he would take anything that didn't quite get all the way composted down and throw that back into another compost bin to go another round and that was then left behind with a more fine textured material or a smaller material in terms of the the particle size that could go in like a spreader that you could just take and fling out on the ground. But I I would say, you know, there's different ways to use your compost in terms of how you apply them in your your landscape. For the most part, I think we're gonna be just top dressing. If you do have a vegetable garden and you wanna work it in to the soil, you could do that.
Chris:But if we're working it into the soil, that is again another reason why I wanna make sure that it has at least gone through that that that initial composting, you know, that's that it's a finished compost so that it doesn't tie up all those nutrients as it continues decomposing in the soil. So
Ken:but
Chris:I think you could do that in the vegetable garden. You can top dress it or you can till it in. For the most part, I think our, like, landscape beds, flower beds, perennials, you don't wanna dig that stuff in because you you don't wanna dig in the root system. So it's usually just top dressing on our landscape beds or on our lawns. If you do this on a lawn, you wanna make sure you take a rake or something that you don't mat down the grass blades and that you sort of get it down to the soil line, to the soil level.
Chris:It's not piled up high against the grass blades. I don't know how common this is, but I have heard where folks have put compost on their lawn, and it was, you know, maybe too too tall. They didn't sift it down towards the soil, and the sun came out. And because compost is dark, it heat it got really warm, and it kind of baked the the grass blades there. So I've only heard that happen on one occasion.
Chris:I don't know how common that is, but something to to be mindful of. But then what I use my compost for mostly is for my containers. I just mix it into the potting soil. And so that's that's what I that's what I primarily do when I throw compost into the mix.
Ken:Put it in your raised beds.
Chris:Yes. Callback to last week's show.
Ken:And another thing while I'm thinking of it, this is gonna be a nightmare. It's probably gonna have to cut this in somewhere else, but the moisture levels. Oh, yeah. So you need to keep it moist. Never actually said.
Ken:So
Chris:How moist, Ken? How how? Tell us. What's the consistency?
Ken:So usually, the, for your your pilots, kinda think of, like, a a rung out sponge, kinda damp. If you were to take a handful of it, squeeze it, there shouldn't be any liquid come out of it. If it is, it's too wet. So, you know, kind of that rung out sponge is kind of the way you're shooting for that moisture level.
Chris:Get that in somewhere or just leave it here because this has been a a wandering episode. Stream of consciousness. This has. There is another application method that we'll mention, but I don't think we're gonna necessarily dive into it because, yeah, I just don't wanna deal with it. Compost tea, there there is definitely research that is ongoing about the use of compost tea.
Chris:Just doing some of the reading on it. There's two types. There's aerated compost tea, and there's, like, non aerated or steeped compost tea. Aerated is where you get, like, an air pump, air stone. You put compost in, like, some kind of a mesh bag, like a sock.
Chris:You add other ingredients. The most popular one I've seen was molasses, and you aerate that for a certain amount of time to activate the microbes in that and to create a liquid leachate or a liquid feed for plant material. The other type of compost tea is you cut out the air stone and all the extra ingredients. Literally are just steeping like a a a mesh bag of compost in a bucket of water. And so those those are the kind of the two types that I saw out there.
Chris:The the there's research on these, and what it primarily says is that compost tea has typically no effect on whatever research project they're they're looking at. You know, if we think of this whole compost tea research on, like, a teeter totter or I call them teeter totters. What's the other word for them? Not balance beam. Seesaw.
Chris:Seesaw. Yeah. I like seesaw better. If you think about all this on a seesaw, no effect is kind of in the middle, doesn't really tip the scales either way. Positive effect on one side of plants, negative effect.
Chris:I mean, it's really just the the scales are not really like in tipping any which way. It's really a lot of the research is saying no effect, no effect, no effect. There are some studies where they say, oh, this does seem to reduce maybe disease pressures, like disease presence on some of these greenhouse studies that they've done. I know I I saw one where they used compost tea spray on tomato greenhouse tomatoes, and they saw a reduction in bacterial leaf spot, I think it was, Some type of some type of leaf spot disease on tomato plants. They saw a reduction in that with the compost tea treatment.
Chris:And also maybe sometimes like a a soil irrigation using compost tea. But they also saw way more no effects and, you know, a a handful of negatives. So I I think what we could maybe say about that is if you put something in water and you regularly irrigate your plants, it's probably good for them and you'll have you you will initiate some type of effect, positive or negative or nothing. But eventually, you will measure something. Like, if yeah, you just keep doing the study over and over again, yeah, eventually, yeah, you'll measure something.
Chris:But if we look at the broad spectrum of studies, it is no effect.
Ken:Alright. His email's down below.
Chris:Yeah. Send me emails. I
Ken:oh, boy. So I I think, you know, one thing when when people are using compost, a lot of it's they kinda equate it to fertilizer. Mhmm. And that's sort of the case. So there's mean, compost is gonna have some nutrients, but it's a really low analysis.
Ken:Think heard a lot times, like, two two two Mhmm. Five five five something like that. So it's not a very there's gonna be nutrients in it, but it's not gonna be the same as putting, like, a a synthetic fertilizer down there. Even some of the organic sources are gonna be a little higher analysis than than compost. So it so it can provide some it's gonna provide some nutrients, but it's not gonna be a you know, if you're really deficient in something, compost may not be the the whole solution to that.
Ken:It can help, but it it may not you may have to add some other stuff, to that as well. But and and you mentioned, you know, putting it on there, the the microbes in the soil, will feed on us. So you're kind of that's gonna help feed that soil microbiome, which is gonna be a healthy microbiome in the soil. It's gonna be good for your plants. So it may not be, you know, providing a lot of nutrients directly to the plants, but those microbes as they break it down will release stuff and and you're feeding that.
Ken:So it's still good. So you you're gonna have that benefit as opposed to, like, your your synthetics where you just, you know, put that on there. You're not building the soil, but you're getting that that that boost in nutrition.
Chris:And and I don't think I would be out of line saying that most gardeners do not do soil tests. Like, we do
Ken:not
Chris:know the nutrient rates of our soils, whether we have too much, too little, just right. But that is a suggestion that you'll hear coming from us a lot. And especially when we had our conversation with Zach Grant about contaminated soils, because Zach Grant, he's a Cook County extension educator, he does a lot of work with, like, urban farming. They use a lot of compost in those systems, and he started looking at some of this research happening, showing a lot of pollution coming off of these gardens with all of this excess compost being used. And I think this is just another point maybe as we we wrap things up to remind folks soil tests can be helpful to know that if you even need to add some of these these nutrient components.
Chris:Phosphorus being the main one that I'm thinking about because phosphorus tends to be the one that builds up in our soils as it binds the soil particles. It doesn't move as readily unless there's, like, erosion happening. So phosphorus can build up to sometimes, like, toxic or up unhealthy levels for plants. And some of our compost, like manures, can have high levels of phosphorus in it, and and depending on what ingredients you would put in your compost pile. So you can get your compost tested.
Chris:You can get it analyzed by a soil lab. You can send in a sample, they'll tell you what the nutrient analysis is. I mean, it doesn't cost a terrible amount, $15 for the test usually, $15.20 dollars for the test. You know, we're maybe looking another $10 in shipping. And so it it is valuable to know so that you're not putting something into your soil on your soil that that might be contributing to a pollution problem because, while I don't think Ken and I we're not responsible for the hypoxic zone in the Gulf Of Mexico, but get 10,000 of us.
Chris:And, yeah, we're we're now we're contributors. And, you know, visual like a like a like a like yeah. So soil testing can be useful and important. You can analyze your compost if you want.
Ken:Yes. I'd say I would say definitely do that, and I'd say for your average backyard compost, you're not creating enough compost where if you're you're adding it to your soils, you're you're probably not gonna get to the like, they're seeing some places in Cook County where they're constantly adding large amounts of it. Yeah. You're just getting inches. Yeah.
Ken:If you're just getting the load once a year, couple times a year, sprinkle them, you know, half an inch on your soil. I wouldn't be too concerned. But there is that there is that potential if you're adding a lot. Yeah.
Chris:Yeah. I think Zach was seeing, like, entire just beds being just formed of compost. That I mean, that's five to 10 inches worth of compost. Yeah. And and remember, everything in moderation in life, and that applies to gardening.
Chris:So too much of a good thing starts to be a bad thing.
Ken:So plants, you can never have too many plants.
Chris:I know. That is that has been a problem. So if only plants were cheaper, I could have more and more space. More space start growing on top of the house. Well, that was a lot of great information about composting, how you can get started in your own backyard using compost, and hopefully doing a little bit of a soil test too, making sure we're we're being responsible stewards of our nutrients that we're we're adding to to our gardens and landscapes.
Chris:Well, the Good Growing podcast is a production of University of Illinois Extension edited this week by me, Chris Enroth. Hey, Ken. Thanks for hanging out. And as both I, you, both of us confess our passive composting habit. So thanks.
Chris:I'm I'm glad we're kindred spirits and composting.
Ken:Yes. Thank you. Maybe I'll, maybe I'll go out and turn it for the first time this weekend.
Chris:Oh, that's so it's so hot though, Ken. That's a lot of work.
Ken:I don't know. I think this weekend's supposed to be cooler.
Chris:Okay. Maybe. Alright. Maybe I'll alright. Alright.
Chris:I will turn it and then again probe my wife, see if she'll like buy me that chipper shredder yet.
Ken:Alright. Let me know if you need a note.
Chris:Alright. I will.
Ken:And let's do this again next week.
Chris:Oh, we shall do this again next week. It's the Farm Progress Show. So it's gonna be a garden by week for us. So look for and if we see you at the Farm Progress Show, hey. Stop by and say hi at the extension ten.
Chris:Well, listeners, thank you for doing what you best and that is listening. Or if you watch us on YouTube, watching, and as always, keep on growing. Well, I guess we'll go do this thing called a podcast. Ready, Ken? Ready.
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